trouble | It's 2 a.m. Of course I'm posting difficult comments online.

I can't sleep for various reason, the most immediate of which is my foolish decision to close my eyes "for just half an hour" and then sleeping from 6:30 till 10:30 this evening. *sigh*

I check out Kate Harding's blog about fat acceptance, Shapely Prose, on a regular basis, although currently that means "twice a month", and caught this post from her today, which is about a BlogHer Talk on body image and related issues. The talk and the group blog related to it* are called We are the Real Deal.

It wasn't until I checked out the contributors to that site that I realised how much "Gosh darn it, women, you are beautiful as you are!" talk is rarely, if ever, directed towards women with disabilities. (Or men with disabilities, or genderqueer people with disabilities.) It irritates me, partly because I should have noticed sooner, but also because there doesn't seem to be an understanding of how much information is thrown at people with disabilities that they are basically horrible and uncomfortable to look at, and they should do things to make themselves less unappealing to people.**

[See, for an example of someone trying really hard to be helpful, this response to a post by

mariness about her experiences of people turning away from her as soon as they saw her cane, amongst other things that went incredibly poorly at ReaderCon. Essentially, she should make herself more interesting and appealing to people by putting stickers on her cane. I'm all for stickers on canes, should one want, and we've got a set of wings that I hope to add to Don's wheelchair at some point for formal occasions. But, it shouldn't be

mariness or Don's job to put pretty things on their mobility aids to make it easier for the nice able-bodied folks to cope. Plus, there's an infantizing effect going on here. When I, as a currently abled woman, act silly and wear purple hats and t-shirts with sparkles and care bears on them, it sends the message of "immature and/or silly". If Don, in his chair, did the same thing, it would reinforce the image that a lot of people already have - that it's okay to baby talk to him because he's obviously got the mind of a child.]

Anyway, before I get totally sidetracked into every aside imaginable, I left a comment about this, both at Kate's here (although the one there is phrased as a broader question, for the contributors to the blog, at least, seem to be all white as well as able-bodied, and I know Kate has received criticism she's very concerned about regarding how white-focused Shapely Prose is) and at the main blog here, although I'm quoting it below. I'm mostly reacting to their sentence "We are YOU", because... well, they aren't.

Will you be recruiting any contributors to this blog who have a disability? From my reading of your bios (which may be wrong! – my reading isn’t always as clear as it should be, and I admit, I haven’t been to any sites except Kate’s), there are no women contributing who have a disability.

People with disabilities, especially women, have all the same pressures currently non-disabled people do to look “good enough”, with added bonus of being either non-sexualised or hyper-sexualised, as well as having people infantize them to an incredible degree.

I have no doubt that there is a desire to represent this in your blog. I notice the two figures with canes, and the one with glasses, and I know you’re trying to include me and mine. I think it may be worth contacting some women who blog about disability and see if they have time or energy to contribute.

I'm afraid the response of this is going to be "Well, you do it then!" Meant, I know, to be supportive and outreaching. I hope they don't, though, because I just deleted two paragraphs (long, long, paragraphs) about how tired and stretched out I am right now, and that is not going to get better with the thesis in the fall. (And I should know, shouldn't I, who is blogging about self-esteem and disability right now, but I don't.)

The answer on many blogs, when you point out a deficiency in their coverage of Big Issues, is to suggest people submit guest posts or "do it themselves" or similar things. But, having watched Amandaw's posts on Feministe this summer (again!) turn into "Please explain the last 10 years of disability-related activism to me, and also I don't think you're the expert on your own care", I know I'm not up to explaining over and over and over again that yes, people with disabilities are people, they are not an amorphous blob that all agree on everything, they can get jobs, they can get married and have children, they can be queer or asexual or straight or pansexual, and that wheelchairs are not a fucking tragedy omg***. There are people who have the time and energy to do that. I am not one of them.

One of my frustrations with various progressive groups I've been a part of has been this strange reluctance to aggressively recruit. I was on a sexual diversity committee that felt it was "diverse enough" when there were no trans people on it, no people who weren't white, and the only person who talked about disability was me. "We sent out emails to all members of the Party!" Yes. One. And then assumed everyone read it and that was that. One needs to go out of one's way to look for diverse voices, though. We have our own spaces. There's a reason I love

accessibility_fail - it's a space I don't have to explain anything in. Same with

disability. Same with Hoyden about Town. There are a few mailing lists I'm on, too. (Yes, they still exist.) (Not just on Yahoo!Groups.)

If BlogHer and associated folks want to reach a diverse audience, and want to include women with disabilities in their discussions about self-esteem, they need to ask them to participate. Not just a "Anyone who wants to join can!" statement, but an actual "We want your voice included."

Because we're here.

* I spent ten minutes trying to sort out where to put the commas and is/are and all this stuff. Note to self: Get a book on that stuff. Other than Eats, Shoots, and Leaves.

** Really, I could talk on just this topic for hours. It gets into why I think the response of "We'll get more volunteers!" is problematic. A lot of folks volunteer because they want to be thanked, and they want it to be a rewarding experience. But Homecare comes by even if Don's in a shite mood and isn't nice to her and the flat looks like a cyclone hit it, because she's paid to. I have no doubt that Don's homecare worker is a nice woman, and I also know if Don was being abusive towards her there would be repercussions, but he shouldn't have to be suitably inoffensive to get aid.

*** I type this often, I now have a macro set up. I think I need an icon, and a t-shirt. And maybe a flag.

Current Mood: exhausted

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

mariness

I'm still upset about that comment.

From:

trouble

Heck, I'm still upset about that comment, and it wasn't directed at me. I don't blame you at all, and that person really doesn't *get* it.

From:

mariness

The end result of all this is that although I had planned to put Harry Potter stickers on the cane just to amuse myself (and make that cane a little more attractive), I don't want to anymore.

Besides which, since she hasn't met me, she may be assuming that I need to draw attention away from my body and towards the wheelchair/cane. Thing is, for me, it's the opposite, since if I'm not having walking difficulties or in my wheelchair I look "normal":

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29144970@N00/sets/72157621411845164/detail/

(Me at the con.)

So no, I don't think I need to draw attention to the damn cane, thanks muchly. It got enough attention as it was.

From:

mariness

That comment probably came off wrong. I need to stop commenting when tired.

From:

mariness

I spent some time thinking of why it was so important for me to tell someone who doesn't even know me or care that I look "normal" when not walking around, because it was, and I still haven't entirely figured out why. I do realize how that comes off, especially in the context of this post/thread, and all I can say is, one small part of this is that I personally haven't really accepted this illness. I've told myself that I have, but clearly, I'm lying to myself, especially since I still have this need to squeak "But I look normal! I look normal!" in a thread specifically discussing otherwise.

So. Er. My issues. More self thinking is needed. I mean, I just realized I typed "this illness" instead of "my illness" in an attempt to distance myself yet again. Grr.

From:

trouble

I just want you to know that nothing you've said here makes you come off "badly" to me.

I'm pondering some responses here, so I'm not ignoring you or wanting you to feel you've said something "wrong".

From:

zingerella

Wow, that's a remarkably heterogenous group, over there!

From:

trouble

But Z! Only certain women are worth self-esteem building!

From:

zingerella

Sorry. I meant homogenous. Too distracted.

And yeah. So I gathered. Girls like me need self esteem. How fortunate for me that I went to a school that catered to privileged middle-class girls and had instilling self-esteem as its mandate. I guess all those other girls will have to find their own schools.

At least the stupid Dove ads had some women who weren't pasty-white in them.

From: (Anonymous)

Hi Anna: This is Heather, I am the founder of WeAreTheRealDeal.com and I just spent some time reading through your comments.

You know, you are correct, the group I assembled is not diverse enough. We presented today at BlogHer and I spoke with several individuals (all races, male, female, with and without disabilities). We will add contributors, but I will certainly not be random about it. Each and every contributor will be chosen for their perspective (I have already been contacted by about 10 who are interested, but I have not even begun to sift through them)

I have to be honest to tell you that I haven't thought about many of the issues you and your community are talking about here (the "decorating your cane/wheelchair" concept is particularly disturbing) Cripes, as a non-disabled individual and a mom, I feel terrible people such as yourself would have to about such a thing....what an insane place we live in!

I can tell you that what you say matters a great deal, but I am a bit put off by what seems to be a lack of compassion for us seemingly "beautiful women," as you say it, assuming we have it great just because we look good on the outside. Isn't this just as narrow-minded as you accuse non-disabled people of being?

Bottomline- I am glad I came over here to read your thoughts, and I would like nothing more than to continue the conversation. Perhaps you or one of your posters would be interested in contributing? Feel free to contact me direct and tell me why at realdealgirls.com or if not...take care

Thanks!
Heather

From:

mariness

I don't have a problem with beautiful people, and I'm not naive enough to think that problems end just because you happen to look like Megan Fox or Dichen Lachman. But I really don't think that's what the original post is about.

From:

trouble

I'm emailed Heather to confirm this comment is from her, but as she's attending BlogHer right now, I suspect it will take a bit to hear back.

For what it's worth, I think she confused "Hey women, you're beautiful" with "you're conventionally attractive and thus have no problems".

From:

lauredhel

"I can tell you that what you say matters a great deal, but I am a bit put off by what seems to be a lack of compassion for us seemingly "beautiful women," as you say it, assuming we have it great just because we look good on the outside."

I've been back over and over the original post, and can't figure out where you're getting this from. To help us figure out what you mean, could you maybe pullquote and explain? Right now it feels like a complete non sequitur "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" - and I can't imagine that that's what you actually meant, if you are who you say you are. At least, I hope not.

Edited Date: 2009-07-25 02:12 pm (UTC)

From:

trouble

I've emailed Heather to confirm if it's her, but I'm not sure when I'll get a response. Oh, how I remember ConFatigue, and I *wasn't* a presenter!

From: (Anonymous)

Ok- I am finally back! I apologize for the long delay....I read through everything again so here goes.

First, I totally misread the statement about beautiful people (I'll blame it on a very long day at blogher and drinking of that one Budwiser) How I am reading it how is - you feel that people with disabilities are never told "you are beautiful" how you are.

This makes my comment totally irrelevant, so lets scratch it if you don't mind and talk about that fact that you feel this way. I'll be honest, I don't know how that would feel. I would suppose it feels horrible because you are being treated like you don't exist or you are not good enough to even be considered beautiful. I can only speak for myself when I tell you that I have been friends with, and spent a lot of time in an environment with individuals and kids who were in wheelchairs and/or used a cane and/or bedridden, and I never, ever thought of them as "less than" myself or others - never. I would say you need to surround yourself with individuals who don't have such an attitude, and those that help you build your self esteem - not knock it down!

On the topic of diversity, I need you all to help me if you can. Here's the problem - I have contributors coming out of the woodwork, and I have asked for sample posts. I wouldn't ask someone if they were disabled, just like I wouldn't ask someone if they were white, or black. So, I understand this then means I need to do some research, and find a solid, disabled writer to approach. So here is where I need your help - who would you recommend would be a good contibutor? Would anyone here like to submit their writing? Its no a huge committment- 2-3 posts per month. And honestly, this topic we are talking about right now would be a perfect one to start with.

I would ask of you the same I am asking of all contributors:
submit 2 sample posts on the topic of body image
explain why you are interested in being a contributor

Not too hard, what do you think?
Heather

From:

sqbr

I had a more considered reply but accidentally lost it :/

Anyway:
trouble was not just criticising society for saying disabled people aren't beautiful, she was criticising your blog. So the appropriate response is not "How terrible for you, those other people suck" but to apologise for the lack and make a commitment to fix it. And that commitment should not be contingent on further help from trouble or any of her commenters.

I have never been involved with a serious or multi-contributor blog, so have no advice on finding contributors, sorry. But I think your site would be much more inviting to disabled readers and contributors if you made an explicit sign of inclusivity even before you got any disabled contributors. An obvious step in changing your Mission statement, but you could learn enough about the subject to write a post on relevant issues, or just do a round up of posts by other blogs.

Here's some posts found via my bookmarks and a brief skim through delicious tags:
http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/07/18/disabled-girls-video-game/
http://jesse-the-k.dreamwidth.org/44712.html
http://blobolobolob.blogspot.com/2009/05/gender-presentation-disability.html
http://cripwheels.blogspot.com/2009/05/butchfemmecrip.html
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/04/soaking-in-normalcy-fetishism-or.html

Also another group of women who are VERY rarely told they're beautiful and I think deserve particular attention in discussions of body image are trans women. Being cis I don't know a lot on the subject but I imagine the same basic approach to inclusiveness would apply.

I also found this post on the intersection and similarities of cissexism and ableism:
http://anarchafemme.wordpress.com/2009/05/04/the-intersection-of-trans-and-disability/

From:

softestbullet

I've seen most of those links, but not all of them. :D Cool.

Also another group of women who are VERY rarely told they're beautiful and I think deserve particular attention in discussions of body image are trans women.

Yes.

From: (Anonymous)

Hi sqbr: Thank you for your feedback and links. Point taken on the mission statement, and you will see a change....perhaps too little to late, but best I can do at this point.

Bottomline is I would never intentionally leave out a particular group, nor would our contributors. The fact that we did, is more proof of your point, that in general, people do not talk about/include disabled individuals in body image discussions. I too am guilty of this, as I have admitted from the beginning, but I am doing what I can do now to change that.

The links are greatly appreciated, including anarchafemme site. I'm taking some time to read so we will see where those connections go. If you or anyone else on this forum have more sites to share please send them directly to me at realdealgirls@gmail.com

Another group we left out is one I am a part of - mentally ill. My anxiety disorder is well under control these days, but for the vast majority of my life it ruled me. My focus on my personal blog at mamavision is a community of young women and men with eating disorders, as you may or may not know many times anorexia/bulimia is hereditary and associated with a mental illness such as anxiety and depression. So, I am working on recruiting over a few amazing people who are willing to share their perspective on this. I talk about the topic from time to time, but I'd rather have someone else contribute in this circumstance.

Anyway, thank you very much for your feedback. All I can say to you, and everyone else here, is that I am doing my best. I am getting ripped to shreds in the process, but that is ok....I wouldn't have started this if I was not passionate about creating something that mattered.

The only thing I ask is this - give me and others time to understand. Many criticisms are based on having to reiterate "101" topics, and to that I say cut me and others slack....I never claimed to be an expert in anything nor do I expect anyone to be an expert on Eating Disorder terms and issues.

Take care,
Heather

From:

sqbr

Something I meant to say but forgot: There doesn't seem to be a place for posts about disability (or trans or other gender-expectation-defiance) issues in your side bar. If your side bar is generated automatically as new posts and tags are added then I guess this is covered by the "create some posts" suggestion.

From: (Anonymous)

Will check into this as well -- this is a good solution to get up and running quickly

From:

zingerella

I would suppose it feels horrible because you are being treated like you don't exist or you are not good enough to even be considered beautiful.

Okay, now think about this in the context of a society where, to quote Stephen Fearing, "we teach our little girls submission as the best way to survive, and the measurement of beauty becomes the ruler of their lives."

Think about never seeing anyone who uses a wheelchair or a mobility aid or prosthetic device or who just plain moves or talks differently presented as a "beautiful person." Never seeing a Disney Princess who uses a cane. Never seeing a blind movie star. Never seeing a model with a cane modelling lingerie or a wedding gown. Think about growing upoutside the set of people for whom beauty is apparently an option, in a society where women, from the day we're born, are told that beauty is expected.

Think about being a disabled person in a society where studies have shown that pretty people are more likely to get jobs.

Think about growing up, and watching TV, and seeing people like you portrayed as "issues" on after-school specials, but rarely, if ever, portrayed as just another person, or just another beautiful person.

Creating a "bubble" of kind, affirming friends is lovely, but it's not going to erase the lingerie ads, the television shows, the commercials, the gajillion messages that women with disabilities receive everyday that state that "A woman's job is beauty, and you can't do that." What, exactly, is that going to do to a person's sense of self? To her sexuality? To her ability to relate to other people and to the world?

Wonderful friends are a blessing and a gift and can do amazing things for a person, but, you know, it's a lot to ask of them to counteract a message from your entire society.

From:

pandorasblog

^^ This. Thank you.

The problem we face isn't just that there are some nasty oppressive people out there; it's that the very structures of our society, of its interactions and its frequently unexamined rules and assumptions, is made of oppression.

For me, the beauty thing stacks up like this:

I post a few snapshots on my blog, and my friends (who have a vested interest in keeping me happy, after all) tell me how pretty I am.

But in every magazine, in every TV show and on every beach and street in the summer, and in every nightclub, I see that attractive women wear skimpy outfits that I can't wear because society is not ready to see my body, let alone consider whether it, too, can be beautiful.

Now, there are lots of things that can reinforce positive attitudes about myself, including constructing my own image through choices of makeup, hairstyle and clothing. Creating, with myself as the canvas, makes me feel good. My friends telling me I'm pretty makes me feel good. But these remain small wins in a vast societal lake of fail.

From:

zingerella

Srsly. I mean how many people with disabilities ever make the most beautiful people lists?

Leaving aside the weirdness of such lists and articles, and how much attention they do or don't get, every single person on that list, whatever their pigmentation, has a "perfect," non-disabled body. Which sends a message about what beauty is, and, more importantly, what it isn't.

(Yes, the photo montage I linked also lacks anyone fat (or even not really thin, except for pregnant Jessica Alba), and if I'm not mistaken, seriously underrepresents all the beautiful Asian people in the world, lacks anyone of First Nations ethnicity, and seriously underrepresents men. People has a depressingly narrow view of beauty.)

From: (Anonymous)

Hi Zingerella: Thank you for taking the time to write this response. Reading it I can feel your pain coming through...I can't imagine it, I couldn't possibly. But I can at least try.

One thing you said "A women's job is beauty, and you can't do that," referring to societies message. I get this, I get it 100% --but isn't a possible solution to this is to work to reject this beauty notion? Surround yourself with others - disabled or not - who reject it as well? It's not ever going to take these feelings away, but could it make it easier to deal with because you are not alone? You have other fighters on your side? I say this because this helps me, so I am curious as to what you have to say.

I want to pose a question to you and the rest of the group here - do you feel angry when a "beautiful/abled" individual expresses negative body image? Does it seem preposterous? If I was in your shoes, my answer would probably be yes. Here is where we need to come together as PEOPLE...just PEOPLE. We can't "rank" feelings, and the anger we carry is doing nothing for us...so what could a solution be?

I have found that many times the things I think people are thinking about me -- is not really valid. Perhaps I think they don't like me, or think I look old, ugly, whatever..and we lose ourselves in this.

My point here is I want to put my arms around all of my friends, the morbidly obese ones, the disabled ones, the disfigured ones....aren't they all the same in your heart? They are in mine.

Finally, all of this is so important for children (as you probably know all to well). I have two of my own, and these types of conversations are always discussed in our home. Children don't see these differences, my 6 year old son has a best friend who is disfigured, quite obviously on his face and head. He does not see it what so ever, it is a wonderful thing. His friends mother and I were discussing an upcoming surgery that is necessary and quite involved, my son overheard the conversation and was very alarmed. Why does he need surgery? What do you mean? Neither of us realized the level in which he looks completely past any difference and sees just --his friend. My goal is to assure he stays that way.

Anyway, I look forward to your response, I usually check back here about once per week.

Take care,
Heather

Your writing is really beautiful. Please let me know if you would like it posted on the blog.

From:

softestbullet

isn't a possible solution to this is to work to reject this beauty notion? Surround yourself with others - disabled or not - who reject it as well? It's not ever going to take these feelings away, but could it make it easier to deal with because you are not alone? You have other fighters on your side?

Yeah, this is basically what we've been saying here, isn't it? We're a group who is hurt in very specific ways by beauty standards, in ways that temporarily-able people are not, and it would be lovely if they included us in their affirmation of the beauty of people who don't follow those standards. Made us feel not so alone.

From:

amandaw

Here is where we need to come together as PEOPLE...just PEOPLE. We can't "rank" feelings

This is what EVERY white, cisgender, heteronormative, conforming, currently-abled, middle-to-upper class woman tells us. EVERY TIME. "Come together as JUST PEOPLE!"

YOU say that because YOU do not experience the oppressions we do. So it's easier to abandon those, to quit fighting for those, and just fight for the stuff "every person experiences" (which usually isn't true, and is usually strangely similar to what "white/etc. people experience").

I'm yelling at you again, I know, but we have this line come up every. single. time. we try to fight to have people address OUR oppressions. Suddenly it becomes important to leave them at the door and be "just people."

That's BULLSHIT.

Sorry.

From:

amandaw

For the record, disability communities ARE covering the phenomenon of conventionally attractive people being treated like they can't be disabled. Hell, one of the first things I blogged about is "But you look great!" as some sort of rebuttal to a claim of disability.

I don't know if that is what you were actually aiming for. Your complaint doesn't seem to have any rooting in what Anna actually said, which does make me wonder where it is truly coming from. I know you are trying to do things as best as you can. I do hope that you can step back a bit, remove your personal self from the matter (so as to avoid making it a personal battle) and think about the issue a bit, give it time to digest. It's a systemic issue and it's not just you who's doing it. But you can help fight it in your own sphere of influence, if you're willing.

From: (Anonymous)

Hi amandaw: I know you are focused on ripping me a new one over on WATRD, and I am working my way to those posts as well but I thought I would start here.

My initial response was incoherent because I was tired as hell (and drank a Budwiser, and I am a whimp with no tolerance. That day, I literally spent 14 hours running around at BlogHer, opened my laptop and saw Annas link, read it, and I didn't want to NOT respond. I misinterpreted her comments, apologized, so I hope we can just scratch that from my record? (Odd thing is that response was like a precursor to what happened this week- trust me I get this - I know the beauty thing is my pressure point)

Your points are valid, and I take them to heart. I am absolutely willing to move forward not making issues a personal battle, but I can't promise I can swing it. This week was and continues to be a huge firestorm because of my words --but I still stand by them. I just can't be fake about it. I have never been one who finds it hard to say I am sorry, so that's not it, I just believe in what I said.
Could I have said it nicer? Absolutely
Do I wish I could take it back? Absolutely not.
Do I feel like crap about how the "Barbie" thing went over? YES

You know, there are somethings that are so deep and personal that they are a part of you, so disassociating yourself from those feelings is not easy. This is also what has driven my passion and fueled my efforts to help girls with eating disorders EDs, and I think this is the point you were making in the post above, so I get it.

Anyway, one last thing that I would prefer not to share but will under the circumstance. I took a look at your blog and the post about Chronic Illness. Without getting into the details, I am in the same boat. Having "invisible" pain and disability is so frustrating and exhausting, because as you know there is never a break. It's like being pestered endlessly, and the only reprieve is sleep or drugs (nice icon BTW). I relate to your frustrations, but I would add one --I am so damn sick of talking about it. It is what it is, its not going away, so I just need to deal. I know people mean well by asking "how are you?" but sometimes just don't want to have to respond.

As a founder of this blog, I realize people have certain expectations, and in all honesty I am not sure I can fulfill them. I am blunt, to the point, but also a reasonable, kind person. I have a lot to learn, and I am certainly willing, so we will see where this all leads.
Take care,
Heather

From:

softestbullet

I'm glad you're willing to think more about these issues.

If I may offer a helpful suggestion: when expressing sympathy for people with disabilities, it might be better not to describe our ableist society as "insane." Some of us have mental disabilities. *raises hand*

From:

trouble

Ack, Softestbullet, I totally glossed over that when I was reading Heather's comment. Thank you for mentioning it.

From:

softestbullet

Aw, hey, it's cool. :)

From: (Anonymous)

Hear ya...but so do I so I feel kind of allowed :)

I don't mean to offend - so in all seriousness apologize!

From: (Anonymous)

Sorry, long day. Last sentence is to say "I don't mean to offend, so in all seriousness I apologize!"

From:

softestbullet

Thank you for the apology! I'm actively working to get rid of ableist words in my vocabulary, but it's so hard, and I mess up a lot. So, I try not to be judgmental, but I do try to point it out.

It does help to know you have experience with mental illness.

From:

softestbullet

I forgot to say -- best of luck with that. I can't imagine running a huge project with the lack of energy I have (due to depression & anxiety).

From:

lindra

I'm kind of totally not in love with the comment above me.

From:

trouble

Wow. I am totally not in love with the comment above yours. What the hell was that?

From:

lindra

Yeah. I ... you know something?

I find it problematic. Even if it isn't Heather, and it's somebody else, I still find it problematic.

Problematic enough to attempt a takedown, actually.

I find it problematic that they say

I spoke with several individuals (all races, male, female, with and without disabilities)

when you can't ever, ever assume what people think of themselves and identify as without them telling you or you asking in a, hopefully, nonfaily way, and accepting the answer, if any, that is given. I find the foregrounding of 'but she looks black!' 'but she looks disabled!' to be problematic. Invisible disabilities are under the banner of disability as much as a visible disabilities are, but the social effects are different. Particularly when intersecting with, say, feminism.

I find it problematic that they say

I haven't thought about many of the issues you and your community are talking about here (the "decorating your cane/wheelchair" concept is particularly disturbing)

when a central tenet of white feminism (and some parts of womanism) is the requirement by privileged white men and women/overarching structures to make yourself more appealing/presentable. It's not that difficult an expansion: hey, as abled women we get this shit, if you add in disability, hey, that's a lot of added shit! *further reflections on intersectionality follow*

I feel terrible people such as yourself would have to about such a thing....what an insane place we live in!

Not sure what to say about that. I feel terrible that many women feel the need to bleach their skin, apply poisons to their faces, and fry their hair in the name of being seen/appreciated by white people. Forex.

Which leads into this:

I can tell you that what you say matters a great deal

Uh-huh.

a lack of compassion for us seemingly "beautiful women," as you say it, assuming we have it great just because we look good on the outside. Isn't this just as narrow-minded as you accuse non-disabled people of being?

And I simply detest this argument, if it can be called that. I think this is a leap into defending her own self-identification, personally. Note how she says 'what you say matters a great deal', above, but then she says 'us beautiful women'. That separation of beautiful women and disabled women is exactly what you were talking about in your post.

And besides, it was never in dispute that women are an oppressed class. However, the degree of difficulty encountered is somewhat of an x = 1+y situation. y is the oppression felt/encountered; 1 is the 'minimum'; the y is the degree away from the norm. Yes, experiencing 1 isn't awesome. It's not awesome because all oppression and experiences of oppression, by definition, aren't so awesome. Being y+1, by definition, most likely is as not-awesome if not more. Because the degree away from x = 1 varies depending on intersections. And those intersections are where pressure is most applied. Including, yes, the pressure to be or not be acceptable by the overarching white imperialist etc. standard.

(Note I said 'acceptable', not 'beautiful'. White standards beauty, at this time of writing, is a pipe dream to those who are nonwhite/PoC. But! It is possible to make oneself more acceptable to those standards of beauty -- if one is willing to sacrifice, through great pain and loss of time/etc., to the idea of being a beautiful X.

Beautiful for being X. 'Despite it' isn't quite the right term, but it's early and I'm tired, so it'll stand as a makeshift fit. Despite it. Make your difference more acceptable.

And here we come back to the comment to

mariness. Doesn't that just beat all?

and I would like nothing more than to continue the conversation. Perhaps you or one of your posters would be interested in contributing?

I believe you said something about this in your post?

From:

trouble

I said a lot of things in my post that I'm not certain Heather noted (and I have received email confirmation that it was her), and I'm not quite sure how to react to.

I'm charitably assuming that a lot of it comes from ConFatigue, since she is currently at BlogHer. On the other hand, the post I responded to with my comment has since been deleted, and re-posted, with none of the comments on it retained. Since Heather has a stated policy at WARTD of not deleting comments, I was a bit surprised.

I think there's a lot of things going on in all of this, and I'm not sure what they all are. I have emailed Heather again, as well as asking for some clarification on their comment policy at the blog itself, so I hopefully will hear from her soon. I've asked her to return and respond to some of these comments.

From:

lindra

Hmm. Things that make you go hmm.

We'll see, I suppose, but yes, I wanted to add my agreement with

softestbullet above -- I should've noted that (I have a mental illness myself, *facepalm*), but didn't, and my apologies.

From: (Anonymous)

I saw your post that a post and your comments were deleted - they should not have been. Do you remember the title of the post?

From:

seska_w_i_t

I don't know quite how to contribute on this topic. I agree with everything you've said, trouble - and I particularly detest the under-representation of disabled people in communities, such as group blogs, that scream "We are inclusive!" when they clearly aren't, and don't understand the issues.

An example being Greenbelt, the social justice-focused summer festival that I *adore* and which makes me very happy, but where the access issues and disability-related attitudes literally make me cry, because they're in such a mess - and they really *don't care*, because they have a camping area closer to the events for those of us who can't walk far, so that's all right then... So many places/groups think they know what accessible and inclusive is, when they've never talked to a disabled person in their lives. It's patronising, and it makes me angry.

But I don't know this blog (although I'm going to add it to my feeds now that you've highlighted), so I can't say much about the situation you've raised here. Except that I'm very glad you made that comment to the blog owner. And that the disabled community needs more allies like you. :)

From:

cesy

Do you happen to have a list somewhere of the things that Greenbelt miss? I mean, I guess some of them are linked to the fact that it's a campsite, but what things could they fix easily? I have a friend who will be working on a stall there this year, and I would guess that they may be more likely to listen to stallholders than other attendees.

From: (Anonymous)

I'm not sure which blog you're talking about adding to your feed, but if it's WATRD, don't do it! This (http://www.bfdblog.com/2009/08/13/we-are-the-real-deal/) is just the latest example of why.

Shapely Prose (http://www.kateharding.net), though, should be on everyone's feed. It is wonderful. :D

Also, how the hell are you? I still have your S1&2 of House. Fail. I'll get in contact soon.

xx
Cat

From:

sasha_feather

Very interesting discussion, thanks.

Are you aware of the Access fail at the Blog Her conference?

badgerbag blogged about it.

From:

trouble

Colour me surprised. *sigh*

I haven't been keeping up on my reading list this weekend, so I'll read it right now.

*reads*

....
Woah. Just... woah.

From:

seska_w_i_t

Cesy - the people running Greenbelt know all about the access problems. I was on the Access Team last year, supposedly with responsibility for fixing these problems, and the people in charge still wouldn't sort them out. But thanks!

From:

queenlyzard.livejournal.com

I'm all for stickers on canes, should one want, and we've got a set of wings that I hope to add to Don's wheelchair at some point for formal occasions. But, it shouldn't be [info]mariness or Don's job to put pretty things on their mobility aids to make it easier for the nice able-bodied folks to cope. Plus, there's an infantizing effect going on here. When I, as a currently abled woman, act silly and wear purple hats and t-shirts with sparkles and care bears on them, it sends the message of "immature and/or silly". If Don, in his chair, did the same thing, it would reinforce the image that a lot of people already have - that it's okay to baby talk to him because he's obviously got the mind of a child.]

This is muchly brilliant and food-for-thought. Thank you.